Comments on PCG Eye 2 Eye: Properly Using Power and Authority

Hi Ken, 'All the Kings Men' in my original post i...

2009-07-20T04:35:56.745-05:00

Hi Ken,

'All the Kings Men' in my original post is actually 'God's Secretaries' (recently retitled 'The Power and the Glory') by Adam Nicholson.

I must speak regarding the malignment of Under Cov...

2009-07-13T20:26:34.076-05:00

I must speak regarding the malignment of Under Cover in a previous comment...

I read and liked both Under Cover by John Bevere and Spiritual Authority by Watchman Nee. Both books helped reshape the attitude I have towards those I serve under.

I see both books as being addressed to those who serve, not to those who lead. I do not recall much text in the books about how to get those under you to submit, but plenty of text regarding the blessing and need of submission to one's authorities.

I see a large difference between the sort of submission discussed in these books and the sort I hear about in the "Shepherding" movement. While I'm not familiar with the KC group, I have heard of a church in south-central Michigan that requires its members to have pastoral approval on issues such as buying cars and property. Such a level of submission is far and beyond that called for in Under Cover and Spiritual Authority.

I do not believe for a minute that Jesus wants power struggles in His church. He does not want leaders brow-beating their flock saying, "You listen to me! Submit! Obey!" Paul told Timothy, "the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;..." Compassionate, loving, servant-leadership is absolutely required of any who would lead God's flock.

But on the flip side, when it comes to our attitudes towards those who lead us, God wants us to honor, respect, and even obey the parents, elders, teachers, pastors, bishops, and civil authorities God has placed over us (as long as said obedience doesn't go against a higher authority). My belief is not based solely on a few "proof texts", but I see honor and respect as a common thread running throughout the Bible, much too frequent in occurence to be solely the contrived output of KJV translators.

I think this article is a step in the right direct...

2009-07-08T06:12:31.674-05:00

I think this article is a step in the right direction. I was pondering this post yesterday and had a couple thoughts I could not get away from. One is how shepherding came into being as a reaction to disorder in Charismatic circles and second how that the more carnal a person becomes the more power the want for themselves.

Imagine the irony in those two thoughts. A movement that began to stop immorality became a means of controlling the people. There are still, unfortunately, Pentecostal/Charismatic teachers and ministers that promote this same nonsense through books like 'Under Cover', etc.

These secular power structures were never intended to be part of the Church. Jesus said, "It shall not be so among you... for the greatest among you shall be your servant." It is sad that our beloved King James Bible is responsible for much of this problem. It is well beyond then scope of this reply, but I have studied this out through various writings such as 'All the Kings Men' and have had these type conversations with pro-KJV Full Gospel scholars in the UK and they agree and even point out how the translators were given strict instructions to interpret several Greek terms specifically to show the lay readers their responsibility to yield to church authority. What is worse is that the newer versions to a large degree maintain this.

And I think this is why many are fleeing the organized church by the millions. Barna points this out, but it has been happening for a very long time. Being on the doorstep of IHOP and the former KC Prophet/Metro Church mess we have seen these abuses first hand as the area is loaded with disillusioned believers that have been abused by Shepherding practices. Some I have met will not darken the door of any church.

So in answer to the question let me say that if we overstep in our oversight of God's heritage, the Church that He purchased with His own blood, to which the Holy Spirit has given us the oversight- then we have become those that Paul wept and cried about for 3 years warning day and night Ephesus in Acts 20. What a sobering and dreadful thought.